Metafilter And The Russian Sex Slaves That Never Were

Posted: May 23rd, 2010 | Author: | Filed under: Miconian At Large | Tags: , , | 113 Comments »

I’m part of a vocal minority in a conversation over at Metafilter that has gotten a lot of attention from other blogs, and on the websites of popular print-based publications like Newsweek and Mother Jones. I’m disappointed at the lack of critical thinking and willingness to embrace the hype all round, and the mefi threads have proven unfriendly to skepticism, so I’m going to lay out my ideas here. I’ll also ping others who seem to share my concerns to some extent or other, in hope that they may see this post as a place to comment on the phenomenon, relatively unfettered by hype.

If you are completely unfamiliar with the situation, then the basic threads are here and here.

The popular narrative is this:

Two young women from Russia were suckered by a scam in which they were offered visas and good jobs in the US. Little did they know that they were on a fast track to becoming prostitutes and/or sex slaves. An American man who knew one of the women posted to Metafilter, asking for help. The community rallied, offering resources and contacting the authorities. One NYC mefite met the Russians as they arrived in the city and took them in. Crisis averted!

Taken at face value, this story has a lot of appeal, which is, I think, the main reason why so many people are already so resistant to the idea of taking it at anything more than face value. It has a sort of “we’re living in a movie” vibe to it. The clear line between good and evil; the international intrigue, the feeling of a conspiracy being foiled, the relief at seeing a group of altruistic people come together to defeat a group of selfish people, and the fascination at the idea that the benevolent people in the scenario mostly don’t know each other.

But perhaps most compelling is the idea that here we have evidence that the Internet can be a good thing. Specifically, that the Metafilter community is a collective force of good, and that being part of that community has a profound and substantive meaning. That older, more famous, and more traditional outlets like Newsweek are reporting the story adds fuel to this fire.

The fact that publications ostensibly grounded in real journalism are reporting this story so uncritically and with such lack of depth is, to me, almost more interesting than the story itself.

Many old-guard reporters and editors are scared that the Internet will make them obsolete. Online events happen fast; memes live and die quickly; if you want to write about something that is unfolding at a particular URL, you have to write about it now, now, now. So here we have a great opportunity for a reporter with the “what’s happening online” beat: A complete, feel-good narrative, validating both the power of technology and the power of the human spirit.

Within the discussion on Metafilter itself, users who question any part of the popular narrative, or attempt to suggest counter-narratives even as possibilities worth considering, have been shouted down. Skeptics are treated as disruptive, and their motives are questioned. At the same time, to my fascination, another narrative has emerged, a sort of super-narrative, its purpose being to protect the integrity of the main story against the possibility that, at some point in the future, it might be found to conflict with reality.

The super-narrative is: A group of big-hearted people united through an online community because of their common desire to Do Good.

In my view, many aspects of the primary narrative merit further examination. Some of them are:

- How do we know that the women were caught up in a trafficking operation?
- Why were they coming here, what kind of jobs did they think they were going to get, and how long were they planning to stay in the US?
- Did they decide not to follow their original course of action because they realized that they had been headed toward their doom, or because they realized that circumstance was handing them a place to stay, and friends, and money, and free legal help? Or maybe some other reason?
- Is the bar where the women were supposed to meet their NYC contact as seedy and disreputable as it was made out to be on Metafilter?
- Will they be allowed to stay in the US? If so, how will they live for the remainder of the time that they are here? And how will that differ from their original goals?

Suggestions that these questions, or similar ones, might be worth examining have drawn a lot of ire on Metafilter.

It occurred to me that I was in a position to inject a bit of reality into the situation. I live in New York. I checked Google Maps and discovered that the Lux Lounge, the bar where the women were supposed to meet their contact, was only about a half hour subway ride from where I work. I posted a comment in the MeFi thread, announcing that I was going to go that night, and asking if anyone else wanted to join me.

Susannah (not a MeFite, but I’d sent her a link to the discussion) agreed that a trip to the Lux sounded fun. We had a nice Mexican dinner in SoHo, and headed over, getting there around ten. We had a good time, and I thought that the speculation on Metafilter about the nature of the club was likely to be wrong. When I got home, I posted a comment to that effect, the end of which was:

One popular idea in the MeFi discussion, which I found hard to to read without imagining anguished faces, heads clutched with both hands, and quavering voices, concerned my lack of interest in assuming that the cops would work out all the details.

Whenever I hear a statement, in any context, to the effect of “Don’t worry, the authorities have everything under control,” I feel a little sick. I don’t think I’ve ever been in, or heard about, a situation in which such a statement turned out to be reliable. It’s also the sort of statement typically given, with increasing vigor, when things have started to get really bad, when the seams have started to show, when those who are the most desperate to hold up a facade have realized that just a few more kicks will send it tumbling down.

So. Any narrative with so many fans and so little substance deserves a counter-narrative. I have one. I’m not saying that it’s accurate, and if it turns out to be wrong in every way, I’ll have no regrets. I just want to offer a scenario that’s just as plausible, and perhaps more so, than the one that has engaged what MeFites like to call the hive mind.

Here is my counter-narrative:

A couple of young women from Russia made an arrangement with an agency that promised to get them a job and work visas in exchange for cash. They had peers who had made similar journeys, and they had grown up in a world in which corruption and prostitution are neither uncommon nor poorly understood. They went into the situation with their eyes open, wanting the adventure, believing themselves capable of negotiating whatever obstacles they encountered. They didn’t expect the agency to be on the level. They had considered the possibility that, as women in their early 20s with little or no English, there was a limited range of employment options waiting for them. They figured they would see what happened, and deal with any problems as they came. Meanwhile, one of them let her American friend, her former teacher, (“Fake” on MeFi) know that she was on the way. Remembering horror stories he had read and seen on TV, and feeling a sense of responsibility for his former student, he panicked. Since he was on the road at the time, he talked to the audience he had most readily available: Metafilter. MeFi was fertile soil for this seed, and in no time the story had ballooned into an epic quest that the community must embark upon as one, to bring justice to the world. Fake called and texted the girls, warning them of what they were headed for, but to no avail, because they pretty much knew. The fact that they were scheduled to meet a strange man at a club at midnight wasn’t a surprise, nor did it sound particularly ominous (nor was it). The Lux, a well-kept, legit 18+ joint in a decent neighborhood, with a clientele that’s mostly Russian and includes plenty of women, was a perfectly safe place to meet at midnight, and would probably have been a great place to work. (It might also have just been a meeting spot, and not the place the women were supposed to work at all.)

A mefite who had read the thread, (her MeFi name is ridiculously long, so I’ll call her by her first name, Katherine, which is not a secret), got the girls’ phone number from Fake, texted them a friendly message about hanging out and having a drink, and they agreed. Katherine and friends picked up the women, took them out, and took them home. It wasn’t long before the Russians realized that they had stumbled into a much better situation than they ever could have expected: they now had a hip young host living in Brooklyn. They also had a community of online do-gooders who had taken up their “cause,” sending money (at last count, Katherine had received over four thousand dollars in donations), recruiting legal help and getting the authorities involved. So they decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth. They contacted Fake, thanked him for “saving” them and introducing them to his NYC friends, and embraced their new American lifestyle. What the hell? The adventure has already begun, the worst thing that could happen is that they’ll get deported, and they weren’t planning on staying here permanently anyway.

My counter-narrative may be completely right, or partly right, or not right at all. But it’s just as believable as the primary narrative. Some might say more so. And yet, it’s the primary narrative that is circulating, practically unquestioned, in the mainstream press.

My counter-super-narrative is this: A bunch of people came up with a story together, and wanted very badly to believe that it was true. So badly, in fact, that they convinced themselves, and many others, that it was.

 okay but we can still imagine him in a superhero costume with a cape right

Post-script: I have no beef with Fake (Dan Reetz), the guy who posted the original question. He was just looking out for somebody he knew, and I doubt he anticipated, nor did he really participate in, the hype that followed. Also, his only comment about my skepticism was that he respected it.

*****

All images above with a gray background are screenshots of comments in this thread, where they can, and should, be viewed in their original context. The one with the green background is from the original AskMe thread.

 


  • http://Website newsweek reader

    Censorship on thsi metafilter now?

    [Bunch of comments removed. DirtyCreature, feel free to just not comment in the first place if your plan is to take a shit in the thread and then declare that you aren't even going to bother to participate.]
    posted by cortex at 7:11 AM on May 24

    Reasonable, well structured speculative and very polite argument removed?

    Hardly “threadshitting”. The commenter mentioend that any abuse would be ignored. That s/he would not be responding.

    One would suspect that the commetns hit a little too close to home.

  • http://Website lysdexic

    I’m with TPS on this bit:

    “Maybe now is the time in our community life when we should start planning for how we will handle the unexpected things like this.”

    We get a bunch of off the wall stuff, and it’s only going to get worse, the more publicity strikes.

    Ideas/questions so far:

    -what does ordinary citizen X say/do if they encounter friends coming to the states for a job and then start getting jerked around?

    -what does OCX do in order to redirect when they can’t physically be there? IFDS (that was so hard to type?) can’t be there for everyone. The authorities who contacted K and S on the way could do nothing or did nothing but warn and take information. Even the NYPD didn’t offer to take them anywhere, but that could have been because of IFDS.
    Are there systems of shelters/hostels that could have taken them in without hassle?

    -What does Metafilter do now with situations where the gestalt thinks Something Should Be Done? Doing this via Ask/MeTa will be a major headache for the mods, if it isn’t already. Spontaneous acts of generosity and charity are great, but if we get an uptick, and I bet we will, we’re going to have to do something a wee bit more organized. Some things have already been suggested:

    + credit union
    + benevolent society
    + Hero Initiative-like set up
    + Grameen Bank type set up
    + ask for help/give help type thing I can’t find the name for right now.

    Time to brainstorm. Quit fixing blame/ascribing motives and start fixing problems.

  • http://Website Ampersand

    Censorship on thsi metafilter now?

    It’s pretty clear from the tone of Dirty Creature’s existing comment and their previous activity that they have an axe to grind against MetaFilter in general and took this opportunity to haul out their old shtick and flip the bird a couple times. I’m going to assume that you aren’t familiar with MeFi’s guidelines or culture, but I assure you that it’s a standard practice. MetaFilter is a moderated community, which means that sometimes comments get the hook, largely accepted by the community as being a positive practice. If it was a cesspool of totalitarian censorship, it would have been quite easy for the moderators to 86 bingo’s comments, or those of anyone who expressed a dissenting opinion over there, wouldn’t it?

  • http://Website Ampersand

    Hot damn, he’s the ‘I was quoting SCIENCE,’ guy. That explains a lot.

  • http://joshmillard.com/ Josh Millard

    What you should be concerned about is why one mefite and a few other mefi readers that bother to care about this matter don’t feel comfortable posting to Mefi.

    I am concerned about that sort of thing. I haven’t told bingo not to talk about it on mefi, though, and he seems from past discussion on the site to be more than comfortable in the heat of the kitchen, so I’m not sure I can buy him making a long-form post over here as some sign of some critical dysfunction on the site itself.

    Censorship on thsi metafilter now?

    Deleting aggressive trolling on metafilter is not new. Guy in question dropped a big stinker in the thread with the explicit disclaimer that he wasn’t even going to bother engaging with anybody, and it made an extra mess this morning of an already long and complicated thread.

    You want to argue mefi moderation policy in detail, head over to metatalk and do it there, but spare me this driveby anonymous bullshit.

  • http://Website Julie

    “But I don’t think we should hold this up as an example of how we should do things in the future. Maybe now is the time in our community life when we should start planning for how we will handle the unexpected things like this.”

    The general consensus way back when (spurred on by the u.n. owen fiasco, remember that?) seemed to be it wasn’t such a great idea. Now? Asking for more, after receiving so much already, has me wondering why what was given wasn’t enough and, what is it being used for.

    I agree that there should be a good degree of healthy scepticism about the whole situation, but at this juncture people have too much invested to be able to take a step back …

    ahh … whatever would we do without high drama on teh internets?

  • http://Website newsweek reader

    “If it was a cesspool of totalitarian censorship, it would have been quite easy for the moderators to 86 bingo’s comments, or those of anyone who expressed a dissenting opinion over there, wouldn’t it?”

    Looks like there are severla thousand comments. I only commented that one well structured, well reasoned had been deleted. Who knows what else was deleted out of several thousand?

    “You want to argue mefi moderation policy in detail, head over to metatalk and do it there, ”

    Don’t have $5 to spare.

    “but spare me this driveby anonymous bullshit.”

    More proof the original comments hit far too close to home.

    Still think miconian is on to something here. Emotional responses liek this proof

  • http://metafilter.com shmegegge

    I think it’s considerate of you to have moved these thoughts to your private blog. After having made unfair characterizations of the metafilter userbase, I think it would have been in bad taste for you to then cast aspersions on the girls without having met them and having literally nothing more to base this supposition on than your dogged insistence that nothing’s going on.

    It’s a shame that you’ve chosen to adopt the overused strategy of pretending that all of metafilter jumped on your back for having an opinion. While it’s certainly true that some people in those threads got overly gung ho at the idea of metafilter as hero web site, the truth is that the worst you had to endure was people telling you that they didn’t think it was a good idea to go by Lux, albeit for silly reasons. I think one of them called you a name.

    Your participation in these threads has been weird. People were basically trying to keep these girls safe, fully aware that they might not have been in danger in the first place. When that was made plain to you, in comments you’ve reproduced here, you chose to see it as some meta-narrative for mass hysteria instead of the far simpler explanation that there is no harm in taking the actions people have so far taken.

    But then, that’s the point of you depicting these girls as opportunists, right? To create a concrete bad alternative that you’re fighting against. To create a super-narrative wherein you’re the hard bitten realist trying to protect mefites. Oh how we must have wronged you, etc…

    Now, before taking that last paragraph at face value, imagine me saying it to you and following it with “My counter-narrative may be completely right, or partly right, or not right at all. But it’s just as believable as the primary narrative. Some might say more so…” Maybe then you can imagine how absurd your stance on this issue has been. How ridiculous it would be for me to say something like that and then pretend like I’m just being logical when I’ve clearly constructed a narrative that insults your motivations and intelligence by implication.

    and that’s what’s a shame about this. you were right to say that these girls might not be in any danger, or at least you were in theory. and you had a fine idea to go check the place out. and you were right that you were in no danger to do so. and what you did was you took being right about those 3 things, and used it as a springboard for a martyr complex and as a chance to make baseless accusations about mefites.

    speaking of which, mullac doesn’t know what he’s talking about. the only reputation kathrine has among nyc mefites (aside from being friends with many of us) is as someone who is perpetually late for meetups.

  • http://joshmillard.com/ Josh Millard

    Julie:

    The general consensus way back when (spurred on by the u.n. owen fiasco, remember that?) seemed to be it wasn’t such a great idea. Now?

    Now it’s still not such a great idea, is I think the general consensus, but this has played out differently than that old u.n. owen mess did in a number of ways, and being in close contact with the folks involved has left me feeling like for all the suboptimal real-time decisions that have come out, this is not a comparable situation at all aside from the superficial gloss of “community throws money at community member”.

    But, yes, it’s a weird outlier of a situation. If I had a time machine or a magic wand, there are a lot of things I’d do differently just to keep the drama to a minimum and the perception issues of money being donated from being uncomfortable. In any case, this is not something we want to see happen

    At this point, immediate-need stuff seems to be pretty much stabilized and people on the ground are working on getting future-state stuff figured out. I think that as far as that goes continued critical analysis and thoughtfulness is a good thing; as I’ve said a couple times, I have no problem in principle with bingo’s skepticism about this stuff, I just don’t think he’s done a great job of presenting it in a way that makes the situation any better.

    Which is pretty much the running theme here: people are doing what they can and what they think they should be, and while I think it’s possible for that to have subpar results I also don’t think there’s any unambiguous reason to believe that that’s a result of malicious intent, on fake et al’s part or on bingo’s. But it’d be nice to have a little more patience and a little less antagonism in play.

    newsweek reader:

    Who knows what else was deleted out of several thousand?

    I do. Two comments, both of them with phone numbers, that we were asked to remove after the fact. Downright Orwellian, I know.

    Don’t have $5 to spare.

    I’ll gladly front you an account. My email is visible on my profile page on the site. Your call: put up or shut up, or keep making a spectacle of your unwillingness to do either.

  • http://Website lysdexic

    Guess my earlier stuff got lost in the ether.

    I don’t know if it’s better to do here or there or another MeTa thread, but we do need to talk about what to do the next time something like this comes up, and by “this” I mean a situation where the common consensus is that Money is Needed Right Now.

    + grameen bank type
    + benevolent society
    + credit union (my favorite)
    + ask/give charity that I still can’t find the name for
    + something modeled after the Hero Initiative

  • http://Website jack

    “But then, that’s the point of you depicting these girls as opportunists, right?”

    I’ve noticed here, and on metafilter, the constant calling of these two women as girls. They are not girls. They are adult women.

    I’m guessing had these been two men (or boys?) that ended up in nyc with no money or friends the 4000 collected may have been more like 400.

    “the only reputation kathrine has among nyc mefites (aside from being friends with many of us) is as someone who is perpetually late for meetups.”

    You do not speak for all nyc mefites. That’s cute that you think you do, however.

  • http://Website newsweek reader

    “I’ll gladly front you an account. My email is visible on my profile page on the site. Your call: put up or shut up, or keep making a spectacle of your unwillingness to do either”

    so my questioning a clear cut case of censorship is “making a spectacle”? interesting view

    all i did was ask why a well reasoned and very well written comment was deleted and my question was met with aggresion (“bullshit”) .

    miconian can correct me if i’m wrong, but the only reason this blog entry is here at all is the intolerance of metafilter towards dissenting view

    they call you guys the hive mind for a reason.

    give you $5 to the russian scammers. i wont sign up and subject myself to this abuse

  • http://Website chickenshit

    Just stopped by to say here what I can’t say there: I’m blown away by the pile-on, bingo; wish I could say I have your back but I can’t even see it under all that vitriol.

    Completely agree with Mavri that “Its [Metafilter's] performance in this case has been both awe-inspiring and disappointing.” This isn’t the first time I’ve seen the collective act like a mother bear protecting her cubs when faced with an opinion that doesn’t quite match up. Disappointing, indeed.

    Kudos to fake and & Kathrine and the Mefi community in general for stepping up to avert what was seen as a bad situation. Raspberries to those who can’t handle any doubt that deviates from the party line.

  • http://Website Agreed

    Newsweek Reader-

    I agree with you, definitely don’t take the $5, I’m close to disabling my account over the overreaction of everybody, everyone assuming they are heros and the mods being completely reckless. (uh hello Josh stop trying to bring people to metafilter where you have “power” and can delete anything they say so you can be right.)

    Jack-

    I agree with you 100%, if it was 2 guys there probably wouldn’t have been any money involved it would not have got anywhere close to the same notice as this did.

    The whole situation rubs me the wrong way, the throwing money at the problem $4k+ is more than enough money to buy these girls plane tickets home. The “shady” pictures of a night club (apparently people need to stop reading metafilter every night and go out and actually see what a night club is.)

  • http://Website chickenshit

    And for god’s sake: they’re women, not girls.

  • Anything

    One comment was removed because the commenter him/herself didn’t take it seriously enough to be willing to stick around and defend it. Why should other people waste their time?

    If Josh wanted to ‘delete anything they say so he can be right’, why are all the other opposing comments still online?

  • http://Website Modly

    I’m going to go ahead and close this up.

  • http://joshmillard.com/ Josh Millard

    so my questioning a clear cut case of censorship is “making a spectacle”?

    No, your dogged pursuit of a non-sequitur complaint about moderation over here instead of on the site itself, and your dressing up of routine cleanup as censorship, and your apparent devotion to DirtyCreature’s intentionally risible comment as some shining example of reason and rhetorical accomplishment, and your backpedaling when faced with the question of actually discussing it in a context that makes sense: that’s the spectacle. Do what you like, it’s your life, but you’re making an ass of yourself and cluttering up bingo’s thread here.

    miconian can correct me if i’m wrong, but the only reason this blog entry is here at all is the intolerance of metafilter towards dissenting view

    I don’t pretend to know bingo’s mind, but I’d guess the main reason this blog entry is here is that he knows that it wouldn’t make sense to post a long-form blog entry into the middle of a Metatalk thread. Actual knowledge of and respect for the existing guidelines on mefi is something I’ve never considered him to be lacking.

    Making hay about how the site works out of context, as you are, is a lot less credible than anything he’s done here or there; if you’re an advocate for his take on things, you’re not giving him any help here.

    (uh hello Josh stop trying to bring people to metafilter where you have “power” and can delete anything they say so you can be right.)

    Hi, anonymous complainant. Having and abusing power are too different things; being able to remove stuff is necessary to my job, but I make a point of keeping it to a bare minimum. If you think I delete stuff other people say to win arguments, you don’t know me at all and haven’t been paying careful attention to Metatalk for the last several years. But, again, this is mefi policy stuff that’s a distraction from what bingo presumably wanted to talk about here. Start up a metatalk thread if you want to talk about it.

  • http://miconian.com miconian

    shmegegge: “Now, before taking that last paragraph at face value, imagine me saying it to you and following it with “My counter-narrative may be completely right, or partly right, or not right at all. But it’s just as believable as the primary narrative. Some might say more so…” Maybe then you can imagine how absurd your stance on this issue has been. How ridiculous it would be for me to say something like that and then pretend like I’m just being logical when I’ve clearly constructed a narrative that insults your motivations and intelligence by implication.”

    Actually, that wouldn’t bother me at all. I’m not motivated to suppress, dismiss, or shout down interpretations of the story that don’t jibe with mine. You have the right to your opinion, and actually, if you framed it as you suggested, I would take it less personally than I might otherwise.

    I actually hesitated to fully spell out my counter-narrative here, because I didn’t want this to become about my version vs. the prevailing version. It’s not about me wanting to set myself above what’s happening in those threads; it’s about the fact that what’s happening is ridiculous, and we should all be above it.

  • http://Website Kim W.

    We’re talking about Metafilter, yes?

    The site that outside sources credit with UNCOVERING hoaxes, like the Kaycee Nicole scam, the photoshopped photos in the NEW YORK TIMES, the Givewell campaign, and the fake Nick Nolte online diary?

    I’m curious why you think a site that has proven itself at working to UNCOVER hoaxes would attempt to PERPETRATE one. Or, at the least, why you think that members would “get so carried away about a story they all wanted to believe” when they’ve shown ample evidence of healthy skepticism in the past. If you think that this is a case of members having an emotional reaction to a scary rumor, can you explain why you don’t think the Kaycee Nicole incident didn’t have a similar outcome?

  • http://miconian.com miconian

    Quick note to say that I am not a big fan of completely anonymous commenting. I don’t believe in deleting much, and Cortex and I obviously don’t agree on some things, but he does have a large digital footprint that includes his real name, and that means that when he writes something, he’s standing behind it. For someone like that, arguing with a person who has no identity and therefore no accountability, and can therefore say anything, is pretty exhausting and hard to motivate oneself to care much about. See Jaron Lanier’s “You Are Not A Gadget” for some good insights on this.

    I have been trying to implement Disqus on this blog for a while, but there is some disqus/wordpress issue that I haven’t figured out yet that’s preventing it from installing. Once I get that taken care of, I will probably require some kind of persistent identity, whether it’s openID, disqus profiles, or whatever.

  • http://miconian.com miconian

    Kim W.: “I’m curious why you think a site that has proven itself at working to UNCOVER hoaxes would attempt to PERPETRATE one. Or, at the least, why you think that members would “get so carried away about a story they all wanted to believe” when they’ve shown ample evidence of healthy skepticism in the past.”

    To be clear, I make a huge distinction between those two things. I am not accusing anyone of perpetrating a hoax.

    As far as the healthy skepticism in the past, I like to think that I have been a part of it, having been a member there since 2001. However, if you read the Kaycee thread from the beginning, you’ll see that it took quite a while for the community to agree that the story had been made up, even in the face of mounting evidence. The Kaycee/Metafilter story is a great story, but it is the story of an internal struggle on MeFi as much as it is the story of MeFi teaching the rest of the world a lesson.

  • http://Website Anon_Agent_14

    The “shady” pictures of a night club (apparently people need to stop reading metafilter every night and go out and actually see what a night club is.)

    Fuckin’ a-men. Some of the people on Metafilter act as if they’ve never been out past 10 PM and get all their knowledge of the world from TV news and documentaries.

    I know for me, I fucking tired beyond tired of the weird puritanical hysteria and subsequent mob pile ons that seem to accompany every MeTa that involves women’s issues. It’s warped and it’s naive and although I don’t approve of his frustrated tone towards the group, I can certainly understand it, especially in the face of the hysteria that spread like wildfire with zero brakes or composure, or thinking involved in this situation. And then getting all this over protective nonsense thrown at him for simply having the curiosity and basic intelligence to go and see for himself and report back what it is he found.

    Christ, you would think that his going to Lux and reporting back that it was pretty much your average, sorta swanky lounge with nothing weird going on, was a defense of sex-slavery.

    Enough with the school-marm puritanical BS Metafilter. Fucking grow up and show some spiritual courage and stop acting like mice sitting safely behind your keyboards and cable TVs, smoking weed and being a bunch of spoiled overly-entitled rich people.

    And the reason I’m going to remain anonymous is because I really don’t want to deal with the fucking inevitable pile-on and the insulting condescending moderator “talking too…”

    One other thing, Cortex, really stop trying to dominate the discussion here. Seriously: Get Your Own Fuckin Blog.

  • http://Website Jim

    A long, emotional discussion thread is a tough place to explain an alternative viewpoint, and I’m glad you got it out here. While I think persuading those girls to avoid the club was the right move simply based on probability, the whole “we need more than $4,000″ without explaining explicitly what that money is eyebrow-raising and perhaps illustrates why skepticism and transparency are important even at the crest of a tide of goodwill.

  • http://Website shmegegge

    You do not speak for all nyc mefites. That’s cute that you think you do, however.

    that’s no doubt, true. which nyc mefite are you, again?

  • http://joshmillard.com/ Josh Millard

    However, if you read the Kaycee thread from the beginning, you’ll see that it took quite a while for the community to agree that the story had been made up, even in the face of mounting evidence.

    Absolutely. And I think it’s a good and fair point. I hope I’ve been clear for my part that my concern is not with arguing skeptical or counter-narrative points but with some of the specifics of how that has played out and the ways in which that’s led to people being more at odds with each other than I think they need to be.

    Narrative momentum has a way of outpacing actual givens, especially when you have a lot of cooks in the kitchen and the givens aren’t as visible or as unambiguous as in the ideal case. And a big, busy discussion under unusual circumstances is a good recipe for that kind of poor visibility.

    The emotional component is the other big amplifying factor there; folks who engage with the situation beyond the realm of sterile analysis are less likely to respond to counter-propositions with grace, and things have a capacity to get more emotionally fraught than they need to be.

    Which is unfortunate: we end up with folks who otherwise would or do get along in conflict with each other over the details of something that’s neither of their responsibility per se and which neither side necessarily has any more claim to, and there’s headbutting over contradicting analyses even when probably no one involved in that is actually fundamentally opposed to one another.

    But the reality is that few of us are new to that phenomenon; there’s disliking it, which is understandable, but it needs to be taken into account, and I feel like some of what has been messy in the conversation has been failures on various sides to take the kind of care with some of the framing and presentation of arguments about this such that passions get defused instead of inflamed. But it’s hard stuff and easier to say than do, especially when there’s a big crowd involved, and it’s mostly an issue of hindsight now in any case.

    One other thing, Cortex, really stop trying to dominate the discussion here. Seriously: Get Your Own Fuckin Blog.

    I have MOFB; I haven’t made a post about this there because I don’t really want to start up yet another third-party conversation about the whole thing. One of the many things I would change about this whole situation if I could, one of the biggest things indeed, is to magically make it something that didn’t get a pile of third-party coverage and could be more of a Mefi-community-does-what-it-does thing instead of a hypervisible event with clickbait headlines about sex trafficking.

  • http://Website Fenrir

    WOW… one person questions this and everyone gets pissed. I’ve been scammed. I know what it feels like and I know that the extent that people with go through to scam people is huge. This is one of the easiest way to scam people. You can post and re-post under different email addresses and names and it will all look real. It a good story and I mean “story.” People plan scams like this all the time. 3,500 in one night is a good haul and who knows how much residual that they will see out of it in the months to come. I have one question to ask and I dare someone to answer it.

    Are there any links to pictures of the women, the woman that saved them, or anything?

    You have a “story” to go off of and you follow it like sheep. I guess that’s why they call it a flock in religion huh? Sheep to the slaughter.

    I read that people said they would rather do something and be scammed than not do something and be wrong. That’s a nice sentiment but really? It’s like the bums with signs begging for money. I’ll give them food but not money. Food in their stomach is one thing but money spends. You want money? Get a job. I work hard for my money to support my family. What if doing what you think is right is the wrong thing. How many people were burned at the stake because they thought it was the right thing to do? We would love to think that we are good people but it’s not just that you helped but how you helped.

    The Russian girls did what they wanted. My parents played host to two Russian twins. They held down part time jobs and seemed very nice. Then they unexpectedly moved in with another family. My mom found a few pages in the room that had been torn out of a journal or diary. The pages told how they thought we(Americans) are stupid and to trusting. Also in the pages they said how they were stealing from our local Wal-mart. They said that no one checked they’re bags and all they had to do was smile and wave and walk out the door. Now I’m not saying that they are by any means the standard but hey I lived it.

    In closing, is it bad to questions something? No
    Should we try to help someone because we can? Yes but don’t be a sucker just because you can either!!

    OK I’m done.
    End of line….

  • http://metafilter.com shmegegge

    Actually, that wouldn’t bother me at all. I’m not motivated to suppress, dismiss, or shout down interpretations of the story that don’t jibe with mine. You have the right to your opinion, and actually, if you framed it as you suggested, I would take it less personally than I might otherwise.

    but my point is that you weren’t shouted down or suppressed. even the examples you’ve pointed to in this blog aren’t examples of being shouted down or suppressed. what’s more, your own commentary has been as dismissive as anything anyone said to you. you’re adopting a martyr pose, and there’s no reason for it.

    the example counter-narrative to your blog that I put forward was uncharitable in order to point out how uncharitable your read of metafilter has been, and how that isn’t alleviated by you saying “but all interpretations of this could be accurate, and we have no way of knowing!” the implication is unfair and if people react negatively to that, it’s because you’re being unfair to a lot of people, right now.

    in other words, you saying “these women could be opportunists taking advantage of metafilter” is about as reasonable a scenario as me saying “you are taking advantage of these women to score cheap points on metafilter.” it’s not reasonable, and acting like it’s an equally viable narrative is intellectually dishonest.

  • http://Website Kim W.

    “While I think persuading those girls to avoid the club was the right move simply based on probability, the whole “we need more than $4,000″ without explaining explicitly what that money is eyebrow-raising and perhaps illustrates why skepticism and transparency are important even at the crest of a tide of goodwill.”

    …I imagine the lawyer they are consulting is not working pro bono.

  • http://Website ignignokt

    shmegegge, I’m not sure where you’re getting that he’s adopting a “martyr pose.” He wasn’t suppressed, but he was shouted down or at least shouted at. It’s very hard to explain an unpopular viewpoint when you constantly have to defend this or that.

    It’s not intellectually dishonest to explain what you think is a real possibility. It’s absurd to say that a narrative shouldn’t be presented unless it’s absolutely “as viable” as the others. It’s not ridiculous, and that’s enough.

  • http://Website DParfitt

    I have nothing to do with MetaFilter, but I wonder if this whole episode would even exist except for that movie “Taken” coming out so recently and effecting collective imaginations.
    While backpacking all through Europe, I met an awful lot of young, adventurous women who go where they want, do what they want, work under the table when they need to, and generally take care of themselves and have a great time.
    Anyway if you think 95% of girls would rather mop floors for 8 dollars an hour minus taxes rather than 15-20 in tips for working under the table in some bar… you’re nuts. And plenty more than 1 in 20 would work as a dancer.
    I agree with the author that teenage girls from Russia cannot be so naive as implyed, given Russia’s post-USSR history.
    Of course we know the travel agency is a bit shady because the girls never even met their sponsor… and never intended to. The sponsor freaked out when called by fake because she knew it was a little scammy (she probably got a modest kickback), and didn’t want immigration coming after her. Which may well happen now.

  • http://Website Anon_Agent_14

    I have MOFB; I haven’t made a post about this there because I don’t really want to start up yet another third-party conversation about the whole thing.

    I was being a rhetorical. Obviously there seems to be a need about what’s happening on MeTa, outside of MeTa, because honestly you and Jess have a lot of say over how those discussions go and are capable of steering them, AND DO STEER, them into certain directions all the fucking time, whether they be unconsciously perpetrated pile-ons, or anything doing with female subjects instantly has a sacred pool of light shined around it that makes it almost sinful to suggest that women can ever be assholes or bitches or completely manipulative in their own way, and I sorta blame Jess for a lot of that as she’s instantly sister soldjah on any women’s issue.

    I’ll repeat. It’s naive and unrealistic as to how the world and male female relations work. There is always a power component. Always.

    Yes, and honestly, the minute K. threw Fake under the bus, I really stopped feeling for her and S.’s situation. Something is wrong here. Why would she do that? Obviously she either takes him, for granted, doesn’t respect him, or is using him and has zero loyalty towards him.

    I wouldn’t trust her.

    (I do trust Fake, although I’m sketchy about his true motivations, and I do trust IFDS#9)

    Yet, no one stopped to really question that.

    Instead, Bingo, goes to the club, throws the light of REALITY on things.

    BUZZ!! RED FLAG!!

    Conclusion: Bingo is misogynist that probably is in favor of sex-slavery.

    D’uh.

    Not only that, but I can’t abide the spiritual cowardice and media fed ignorance.

    One of the many things I would change about this whole situation if I could, one of the biggest things indeed, is to magically make it something that didn’t get a pile of third-party coverage and could be more of a Mefi-community-does-what-it-does thing instead of a hypervisible event with clickbait headlines about sex trafficking.

    Yeah, I’d say this issue is way past needing another MeTa thread.

    Specifically analyzing moment by moment the actions of the group and some healthy skepticism and critical observations.

    Think of it as an inoculation or a vaccination.

    Otherwise, Mefi, at this point has opened itself up to some serious serious scamming, by parasites and truly evil fuckers watching all this and taking notes.

    Yes, there are fine noble and idealistic principles to live by, but CRITICAL THINKING SHOULD NEVER BE SUSPENDED. ESPECIALLY IN A GROUP THAT CAN BE MANIPULATED BY HYSTERIA.

  • http://Website Turtle

    This guy is just trying to ride the wave of the metafilter thing. Writing against it so he can get traffic.

    Fact of the matter is: he went to what could be an underground russian operation, and didn’t see anything going on from ABOVE GROUND. All this proves is why this man is NOT employed by the NYPD. Nothing else. He accuses people of watching too many movies, but in reality, if he was expecting to go and get offered a blow job after hearing the specials, then I think HE watches too many movies.

  • http://Website dparfitt

    It’s pretty rude…. I will go as far as to say extremely rude to inform authorities that your friend is in violation of her immigration status, even if you think it is for her own good. If these girls are deported, do you think they will be grateful?

  • http://Website Floydd

    dparfitt,
    It’s pretty stupid…. I will go as far as to say extremely stupid to comment about a complicated immigration situation without even bothering take the time to know what the fuck you’re talking about.

  • http://librarian.net jessamyn

    “Now both Fake and Kathrine are in an awkward situation with regard to the money…”

    Just a note about this. People sent about $1000 to my account for fake, the general idea of which was to send him to the East Coast. Once the money-raising was in process, a few people mentioned that they had frequent flier miles. A few other people also mentioned “hey spend the money on whatever you want” [fix your car, get settled in LA, etc] which I believe was when the math lessons thing came up.

    As it turns out, travelling on Memorial Day weekend isn’t the best way to use miles or vouchers and so fake/Dan paid for his ticket out of the money that was raised for him, money that I transferred to him yesterday. His ticket, at the last minute and strictly for a quickie weekend trip, cost $800+ He’ll probably have enough left over for a weekend’s worth of food and drink. That’s the full and total accounting from that bunch of money.

    It’s been made clear that some people would like to know where the money goes and other people don’t really care so much. kathrine’s been keeping track of it and I feel, again, like you either have to trust that she’s on the level or not. If she’s somehow playing some long scam on the community, we can find out, ban her and start legal proceedings [we have all her personal information after all]. I am confident that is not going to happen, but it’s a legal option that’s available and I’ll go around saying I’m sorry to people who I suggested should trust and believe in this general narrative.

    This may be easier for me to talk about since I have access to much more in the way of details and direct lines to all involved parties, but there’s always going to be some parts of this that people don’t know and you can fill those holes in with suspicion or not. I, too, find it weird how the media ran with it, but other than talking to Mother Jones on the phone, the mod team didn’t personally have much to do with that. You may find the behavior of certain commenters not that cool, but I find the community response on balance was okay from my vantage point. But my read on bingo’s approach to this on MetaFilter and his perception of his reception there seem to vary from many people’s, so my personal opinions may not be that relevant.

  • http://metafilter.com shmegegge

    ignignokt, that’s fair. I disagree, because I think bingo has gone from merely presenting a reasonable alternative to making vast implications about metafilter generally which aren’t fair. having people be jerks on metafilter isn’t really the same thing as having any dissent from the accepted narrative be suppressed. I think presenting it that way is intellectually dishonest in the sense that it’s not discussing in good faith.

    THAT SAID, I think your point of view on this is fair, as I said. I think it’s worth mentioning that bingo almost certainly sees the situation exactly as he described it, so this is me acknowledging that and wanting to state for the record that I don’t think bingo is lying or really trying to score cheap points or whatever. I sincerely hope this doesn’t become a thing with people piling on bingo for basically just disagreeing with people, so I apologize now if I contributed to that being what’s going on.

    I still think he’s been largely unfair, not only to mefites generally but also in the way he’s described his alternate narrative re: the russian women. So I’ve popped in here to say that, and to prevent myself from making this all about bingo and getting in fights that shouldn’t happen, I’ll back off.

  • http://miconian.com miconian

    shmegegge: “…I think bingo has gone from merely presenting a reasonable alternative to making vast implications about metafilter generally which aren’t fair. having people be jerks on metafilter isn’t really the same thing as having any dissent from the accepted narrative be suppressed.”

    I didn’t mean to suggest that I was actually censored. I believe what cortex said above about only a couple comments being deleted, because they contained phone numbers, and as he said, he never asked me to leave. In fact, I don’t think any of the mods directly responded to anything I’d said in the thread. Or at least they hadn’t when I stopped reading it about 24 hours ago.

    That said, it’s pretty obvious from that MeTa thread that a lot of people there, who were not moderators, desperately wanted me to shut up, and experimented with various ways of attempting to get it to happen.

    I wrote the post above partly because I wanted to get my ideas out in a less hostile context, and partly because I wanted to make it easy to find for non-mefites.

  • http://Website Julie

    “any unambiguous reason to believe that that’s a result of malicious intent”

    Josh, I’m not sure but I don’t think the intent was malicious way back when either, though I may be eating my words after I go skim those threads. I do remember it got ugly. I mentioned it because its happened before, not as some sideways attempt to impugn anyone character.

  • http://joshmillard.com/ Josh Millard

    I mentioned it because its happened before, not as some sideways attempt to impugn anyone character.

    Yeah, no, the back-then stuff was pretty weird and complicated. I didn’t mean specifically to make the “malicious intent” thing a reference to that old episode particularly so much as a statement about some of the perceptions of the current one. (That old stuff is a strange and kind of ugly re-read, with bad faith in more than one direction and showcases to some extent how the site and the community has grown up a little in the interim.) But I do think there’s a significant degree of difference in transparency and execution between the two situations even if there’s that definite superficial echo in the shape of them.

    Anyway, sorry if that came off unclearly. I think the key point is, again, agreed: the money-moving-around-without-a-clear-plan thing is not a great sort of thing to be dealing with as a general rule, and we’d still prefer very much to avoid that by default, as much for the sake of managing expectations and perception as anything.

  • http://Website warrenl

    One thing everyone should remember is that although the girls were meant to meet someone at Lux Lounge, as far as I have seen there is no claim at all that either
    1. the person they were meeting works at Lux Lounge
    2. the job they were to discuss was a job working at Lux Lounge

    People have commented on pictures from Lux Lounge as implying that there is something mailicious going on there, showing especially a picture of 2 women kneeling near 2 men. I suspect that a picture similar to that could be taken at many nightclubs, and as far as I know there are no visible genitalia in that picture and it is not actually much evidence of ANYTHING.

    Yes, some flyers were shown of stripping and possibly escort events taking place at Lux Lounge – but it is very common for clubs to rent the space out to private parties or to operate out of space that they don’t even fully own or control.

    Whoever is responsible for providing the girls with the information that lead to the girls texting something very similar to “OMG it is a strip club you saved us” was probably coming very close to lying. Perhaps lying to achieve a greater purpose is justified, but if it was a member of law enforcement who was doing this lying…

    The pictures and flyers and other information that have been posted are NOT proof that Lux Lounge
    1. had any relationship with the person these girls were supposed to meet
    2. are affiliated with the Russian Mob
    3. are employing strippers and prostitutes

    Metafilter and the other media who have covered this story should probably have been more careful about giving that impression.

  • http://Website Steve

    I found the way the whole thing went to be kind of distasteful, too, although I think bingo’s tone was needlessly rude.

    But it does seem like the women in this situation behaved irresponsibly. That doesn’t mean they don’t deserve assistance, but I felt like it was incredibly gauche the way people were just tripping over themselves in an attempt to be a part of this dramatic “resue” story.

    And while I don’t think she’s conning anyone, I don’t understand why Kathrine decided to play host to these women if it’s causing such a hardship for her. Now that she’s received all of these donations she can’t back out, but it seems strange to me to do something ostensibly altruistic in this very public way and then tell everyone how difficult it is and how worried you are and continue to post cryptic, contentless updates on the situation while people call you a hero, etc.

    Again I don’t see this as probably anything fraudulent, I just see some people trying to do something good but doing it in maybe not the most appropriate way.

  • http://Website gnome de plume

    To stray back on topic a little, I think it has been pretty conclusively argued that the state of the nightclub as witnessed by bingo is irrelevant. The sex-trafficking process, as explained by pollomacho among others, is a gradual process. If anything, at the beginning, the targets are treated well to hook them. The fact that Lux is a place that bingo would go back *means nothing*.

    I believe that this is the central disconnect. Those who understand the insidious process of gradual co-option of vulnerable women into the sex industry were rightfully annoyed at the idea that the nature of the club – one way or another – had any particular bearing on the story. Bingo’s (and others) insistence in this thread and at MT that the nature of the Club *was* relevant to the story then attracted excess commentary – some of it rightfully on the irrelevance issue, but most of it being of the “don’t harsh the schmoopy” vibe.

    So, that’s all. The field trip to the Lux proves nothing and is irrelevant. It may have a dungeon below it, or it may just be a convenient place to start a long process of entrapment. It doesn’t matter precisely because the whole story is entirely and thoroughly consistent with the sex trafficking modus operandum.

    Everything else is just noise.

  • http://Website Alice

    I won’t pretend to know whether or not the girls really would have wound up in the sex trade, but I will say that I am from Moscow and from what I know, Aloha Travel is legit and has been around for a while. I have a lot of friends who have used them for the same work and travel program, and the exact same thing happened upon their arrival in the U.S. – the original jobs somehow fell through, and the girls were asked to go to a different city for work, they had trouble getting in touch with their sponsor, etc. It was the exact same situation but it turned out to be completely legit, and those same girls are now back in Russia. That said, I probably would have reacted the same way Fake and Katherine did if I were in their situation, so I don’t mean to detract from what they did in any way. And I don’t want to detract from the reality of human trafficking either — it does happen and this situation did sound rather shady. Travel agencies really do tend to be a front for many of the criminals perpetuating these crimes. So I can see why people panicked. Perhaps it was all an overreaction, but I’d rather see people overreacting than just ignoring the potential danger altogether.

  • http://Website Wilson

    The sex slavery conjecture was rather fantastical, but the women were likely scammed out of money, and metafilter’s assistance to the young foreigners was admirable.

    But instead of going home, the girls persist in trying to stay by any means in the USA which demonstrates that they are incapable of learning not to put themselves in desperate situations. Unless metafilter decides to pay for them to go to college and maybe medical school, the sex industry wouldn’t be a bad choice for a couple of foolhardy girls looking for easy money.

  • http://Website DecemberBoy

    Hi, I’m a MeFi member if you’ve not seen my name before, and I felt I should chime in to say that not everyone is rushing to pat each other on the back and burn the heretics. My reaction to the whole situation was quite the opposite of what seems to be the dominant one of “yay MeFi!” – I thought it was a pretty disgusting exercise in groupthink, conformity, and moral tut-tutting (I particularly liked the deluge of people shaming, er, someone for demanding that the PayPal monies sent to IFDS9 be accounted for, until it turned out that, you know, NO ONE EVER SAID THAT). However, this seems to have become a fucking religion given the way non-believers are being treated, so arguing about it there is an exercise in futility. Judging by how all your comments have gotten 30+ favorites, though, there are probably many who feel this way and just feel it’s futile to be speak up and be shouted down by the righteous mob.

  • http://Website roll truck roll

    I don’t think that there was anything wrong with bingo going to check out the club; people’s responses to that were a little over the top (and were probably what led to his obvious change in tone).

    From my perspective, no one was really trying to evaluate the moral candor of the club until bingo posted his report of it. And what I don’t get is why some people would respond so negatively to folks just finding photos from the club’s Facebook page. These photos are things the club is advertising about itself. That’s a big part of the story; at least as big a part as the hookah consultant.

  • http://None! Kathrine

    “I don’t understand why Kathrine decided to play host to these women if it’s causing such a hardship for her.”

    Look up decision science! It is fascinating and complex.

    The answer is, people don’t really know, but they are studying it and have been studying it for a while.

    Also, you kinda sound like my dad. ;)

    Cheers!

  • http://Website Klangston Loquacious

    I’d rather chip in money for a library in China or join the MeFi Kiva team (despite Kiva’s problems) than contribute to this, but that’s just me. It also concerns me a little that “popular” members in crisis get financial help, while run-of-the-mill members in similar situations will never get anything, unless someone champions their cause.

  • http://Website fixedgear

    Can’t wait to hear the podcast. Special three hour mini-series version. Should be a hoot.